Prop 8-I can't take it anymore
I cannot take it anymore. I should stop reading the news. Blast you google news! However, since I have this annoying need to know what's going on in the world, I keep seeing the news articles regarding Prop 8, protests, legal challenges and 'Mormons are Bigoted' ad naseum.
Here are my thoughts. Wait, before my thoughts, full disclosure: I did not vote in California, but am a native Californian. Most of my family still resides there and votes there and if I did, I would have voted FOR Prop 8. Ok, now my thoughts. Mostly directed towards the "We lost?! Quick! Get the signs and lets protest the democratic system that lets us protest!"
The people of California voted to define marriage as 'between a man and a woman' in 2000. Eight years ago. It passed by over 60%. Then, a few years later, four California State Supreme Court Justices, based out of San Fransisco, voted to overturn the people's vote. Enter Prop 8. The People of California voted on this issue AGAIN. This time making it a constitutional amendment rather than a state statute so that the courts could not overrule it. The people voted. And Gays got pissed that they lost again.
"The Court's ruling also established that any law discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is constitutionally suspect, making California the first state in the United States to set such a strict standard." (from the very first link).
Really? Discrimination based on sexual orientation is constitutionally suspect? So, Polygamy would then be ok? Oh wait, no it WOULDN'T according to the gay rights advocates: As more non-gay sexual minorities become politically active, gay rights activists must choose between principles and good PR. Well then, what if a Father happens to have a 'sexual orientation' towards his offspring? Is creating a law making that sort of 'orientation' illegal an infringement on his constitutional rights? What about the rights of the offspring he's sexually oriented towards? Slippery slope indeed. The line has to be somewhere and I draw it at same-sex marriage. I'm sorry we disagree but its either you and me or the next atypically-sexually-oriented person and me.
For those urging Christians to ask "What would Jesus do?", STOP ASKING WHAT JESUS WOULD DO!!! I wish I could find the article, but a homosexual was interviewed and he was quoted as saying, "What would Jesus do? I don't think he would discriminate like that." Really? Maybe you don't know this seeing as how you may be only petitioning to my belief in Jesus, his life and teachings, and not your own, but Jesus routinely told people when they were sinning and also routinely told them to stop it. It didn't make Him love them any less, but don't think he sat down with them to eat and said, "You know, its cool that ya'll aren't listening to my Prophets or obeying my commandments. You don't really have to follow the rules, I was just seeing if you wanted to or not, but you don't, so that's cool. You can still come back to live with me, don't change anything, it's your life." When he talked with sinners he told them to stop it and to come back and to follow his teachings. Here's a few stories for you to read, with pictures in case you can't follow along, that explain how Jesus feels about sinners. He loves them, wants them to come back to Him and will rejoice when they do. But he's not cool with them continuing to sin and disobey.
Jesus is the same guy who was so 'discriminatory' that he drove people and animals off his temple grounds, overturned tables and scolded the people. He's not a pushover. So stop pretending he is. But wait, you ask, didn't those people have the right to sell their goods? Sure they did, but not in his temple. So don't you have the right to be a homosexual/lesbian couple? Sure, you just have to call it "civil union" and there are certain places where you probably should not be (like those vendors-picketing temples might be a nice place to stop going).
Stop calling for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to lose their tax exempt status. The Church as an organization did NOT donate any money towards the "Yes on 8" campaign, individual members did. There is a huge difference.
Yes, leaders of the Church read a letter to congregations in California urging them to give of their time and means to support the proposition. So what? Did non-profit Gay and Lesbian support groups rally their members and encourage them to canvas and donate money and time to fight the proposition? What, you think Mormons are the only people who belong to an organization and are donating money to a political cause they support? Guess again lame-o, both campaigns were pretty equally rich:"So far (as of Oct. 9), Proposition 8 supporters have poured $19,778,208 to outlaw same-sex marriage, about $1.6 million more than opponents of the measure. Add the two sides together and that's about $38 million. Imagine the good it could be doing elsewhere."
Imagine indeed.
Understand the principle of "Separation of Church and State" before you start throwing it around in your argument. This principle does not mean that people who belong to a particular religious group are not allowed to actively participate in the political process. So Mr. Poole, I'm sorry you feel that, "This action causes us to feel they're imposing their beliefs on us," said Poole, who is a member of the board of directors of Equality Utah, a gay rights group.", unfortunately, same goes for you. Gay rights groups in California, and now nationwide, are causing me to feel that they're imposing their beliefs on me. I don't appreciate it either. So I guess its a good thing we're both doing it so its all fair and everything.
To all gay rights groups who tell me to shut-up and keep my opinions to myself, thanks for allowing me my freedom of religion but taking away my freedom of speech. I believe your argument is that I'm taking away a 'fundamental right' of yours so you're taking away my legitimate constitutional right of Free Speech? And even my right to vote since you seem to think my religion has no place in YOUR society? Seems a bit hypocritical, but then again I'm probably not allowed to say that because it will make you mad. So I guess I'll just stay behind my closed doors and live in my bubble since I don't have to interact with society at all so I don't even care what goes on.
Lets not even talk about the fact that there are only about 770,000 Mormons in California and that equates to about 2% of the vote, or that elderly black people, Hispanics, catholics, and a variety of other ethnic and religious minorities in California voted (and probably donated time and money) in support of Prop 8. (there's too many links to support that, seriously, its not hard to find if you need to verify this statement.)
Saying Mormons have no place voting on issues involving marriage because polygamy is in their history is as ridiculous as saying all white people cannot vote on civil rights issues because slavery is in their history. If I'm not mistaking, this retarded argument of Mormons not being allowed to vote their mind on this issue would bar quite a few white homosexuals from the voting booths as well--if the argument was applied equally, which it isn't. No active Latter-day saint today participates (or participated, since 1890 was a long time ago) in polygamy just as no whites today own (or owned, since 1865 was a long time ago too) slaves.
Speaking of slaves, the Gay/Lesbian rights movement may do well to stop comparing themselves to slaves. Being a homosexual today is NOTHING LIKE BEING A SLAVE--NOTHING. Nothing nothing nothing. I cannot even comprehend the slap in the face this must seem to a large portion of the black community whose ancestors were involved in that horrific peculiar institution. The comparison is so preposterous it's almost laughable if not for the seriousness with which Gay Rights activists say it. Not even close. So not even remotely even a fraction of close. Homosexuals are fighting the same fight as blacks, get real. If I were black I'd probably be offended. As it stands, I'm white and I'm offended.
Speaking of "separate is not equal", if that's your mantra, does that mean that all gay bars and the "Queer Lounge" at Sundance Film Festival and other 'homosexual specific establishments' will stop operations? I'm guessing no. So separate is fine, so long as you like the separate. So even though you have 99% of everything that a 'traditional' married couple has, you just can't get over that 1% you don't have: the word marriage.
Speaking of traditional marriage, I read a lesbian blogger who said that the idea of traditional marriage was a farce. That only 50 years ago it was illegal for blacks to marry whites, for interracial couples and for even interfaith marriages in some areas. So traditional marriage, she said, was always evolving. Here's the kicker though--all those marriages listed as 'traditional' are between a man and woman. That's what people mean by 'traditional' moron.
And don't think for some reason that homosexual couples hold the key to uber-long lasting relationships. Homosexual couples seperate just like heterosexual couples do. This particular study from Scandinavia (where 5 out of every 1,000 new couples is homosexual) found that homosexual couples are actually more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples. But what about Massachusetts you ask? Yes yes, Massachusetts has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country and has legalized same-sex marriages for 2 years now and continues to have a low divorce rate that even slightly fell. Please by no means take that to mean that gay couples are making up for all straight divorces by staying together. It could also just as easily mean that straight couples are divorcing less and gay couples more (or the same amount as straight couples used to). Either way, its a weak argument for either side, so stop bringing it up.
I make no apologies for my beliefs or for my opposition of homosexual marriage. I am allowed to talk to people about how I disagree with same-sex marriage. I'm allowed to canvass neighborhoods and even contribute money. I'm even allowed to say "I believe that same-sex marriage is wrong, physically, morally and religiously and I don't think same-sex couples should be able to marry because I disagree." That is my right as a citizen. Just as it is your right to say you disagree and tell me why. I can EVEN say that I think you're "lifestyle" is wrong, is a sin, and that Satan is working against the sanctity of traditional marriage and the strength of families in general through advocacy groups like yours. (That's a freedom of speech and religion two-fer.) You can say you don't believe in a "higher power".
You DO NOT have the right to silence me just as I do not have the right to silence you. You do not have the right to commandeer society because you shout louder than I. You do not have the right to threaten me when I teach in my home that homosexuality is wrong. You do not have the right to tell me to shut up and stay home, mind my business and to keep my religion, my beliefs, out of my voting. This IS my business. It's my society just as much as it is yours.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe in God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I believe the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as written in the scriptures. I know Him to be benevolent, merciful and loving. I also know that he has taught me some lessons the hard way and I have emerged from the tempering fire of adversity spiritually stronger, and with a better knowledge of His gospel, than I could have ever imagined possible. I know I will be with my husband for time and all eternity and I could not imagine anything better. I know marriage is sacred and vitally important in His Plan. I know He lives and that His gospel is true: every line, every whit. I know these things without a doubt. I bear this to you so that you will understand that my beliefs and convictions are not fleeting. They are the foundations of my being. I will continue to stand up for them in the face of opposition no matter how strong, loud or menacing the opponents are.
"And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall." Helamen 5:12
And that, is what I have to say about that.
Here are my thoughts. Wait, before my thoughts, full disclosure: I did not vote in California, but am a native Californian. Most of my family still resides there and votes there and if I did, I would have voted FOR Prop 8. Ok, now my thoughts. Mostly directed towards the "We lost?! Quick! Get the signs and lets protest the democratic system that lets us protest!"
The people of California voted to define marriage as 'between a man and a woman' in 2000. Eight years ago. It passed by over 60%. Then, a few years later, four California State Supreme Court Justices, based out of San Fransisco, voted to overturn the people's vote. Enter Prop 8. The People of California voted on this issue AGAIN. This time making it a constitutional amendment rather than a state statute so that the courts could not overrule it. The people voted. And Gays got pissed that they lost again.
"The Court's ruling also established that any law discriminating on the basis of sexual orientation is constitutionally suspect, making California the first state in the United States to set such a strict standard." (from the very first link).
Really? Discrimination based on sexual orientation is constitutionally suspect? So, Polygamy would then be ok? Oh wait, no it WOULDN'T according to the gay rights advocates: As more non-gay sexual minorities become politically active, gay rights activists must choose between principles and good PR. Well then, what if a Father happens to have a 'sexual orientation' towards his offspring? Is creating a law making that sort of 'orientation' illegal an infringement on his constitutional rights? What about the rights of the offspring he's sexually oriented towards? Slippery slope indeed. The line has to be somewhere and I draw it at same-sex marriage. I'm sorry we disagree but its either you and me or the next atypically-sexually-oriented person and me.
For those urging Christians to ask "What would Jesus do?", STOP ASKING WHAT JESUS WOULD DO!!! I wish I could find the article, but a homosexual was interviewed and he was quoted as saying, "What would Jesus do? I don't think he would discriminate like that." Really? Maybe you don't know this seeing as how you may be only petitioning to my belief in Jesus, his life and teachings, and not your own, but Jesus routinely told people when they were sinning and also routinely told them to stop it. It didn't make Him love them any less, but don't think he sat down with them to eat and said, "You know, its cool that ya'll aren't listening to my Prophets or obeying my commandments. You don't really have to follow the rules, I was just seeing if you wanted to or not, but you don't, so that's cool. You can still come back to live with me, don't change anything, it's your life." When he talked with sinners he told them to stop it and to come back and to follow his teachings. Here's a few stories for you to read, with pictures in case you can't follow along, that explain how Jesus feels about sinners. He loves them, wants them to come back to Him and will rejoice when they do. But he's not cool with them continuing to sin and disobey.
Jesus is the same guy who was so 'discriminatory' that he drove people and animals off his temple grounds, overturned tables and scolded the people. He's not a pushover. So stop pretending he is. But wait, you ask, didn't those people have the right to sell their goods? Sure they did, but not in his temple. So don't you have the right to be a homosexual/lesbian couple? Sure, you just have to call it "civil union" and there are certain places where you probably should not be (like those vendors-picketing temples might be a nice place to stop going).
Stop calling for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to lose their tax exempt status. The Church as an organization did NOT donate any money towards the "Yes on 8" campaign, individual members did. There is a huge difference.
Yes, leaders of the Church read a letter to congregations in California urging them to give of their time and means to support the proposition. So what? Did non-profit Gay and Lesbian support groups rally their members and encourage them to canvas and donate money and time to fight the proposition? What, you think Mormons are the only people who belong to an organization and are donating money to a political cause they support? Guess again lame-o, both campaigns were pretty equally rich:"So far (as of Oct. 9), Proposition 8 supporters have poured $19,778,208 to outlaw same-sex marriage, about $1.6 million more than opponents of the measure. Add the two sides together and that's about $38 million. Imagine the good it could be doing elsewhere."
Imagine indeed.
Understand the principle of "Separation of Church and State" before you start throwing it around in your argument. This principle does not mean that people who belong to a particular religious group are not allowed to actively participate in the political process. So Mr. Poole, I'm sorry you feel that, "This action causes us to feel they're imposing their beliefs on us," said Poole, who is a member of the board of directors of Equality Utah, a gay rights group.", unfortunately, same goes for you. Gay rights groups in California, and now nationwide, are causing me to feel that they're imposing their beliefs on me. I don't appreciate it either. So I guess its a good thing we're both doing it so its all fair and everything.
To all gay rights groups who tell me to shut-up and keep my opinions to myself, thanks for allowing me my freedom of religion but taking away my freedom of speech. I believe your argument is that I'm taking away a 'fundamental right' of yours so you're taking away my legitimate constitutional right of Free Speech? And even my right to vote since you seem to think my religion has no place in YOUR society? Seems a bit hypocritical, but then again I'm probably not allowed to say that because it will make you mad. So I guess I'll just stay behind my closed doors and live in my bubble since I don't have to interact with society at all so I don't even care what goes on.
Lets not even talk about the fact that there are only about 770,000 Mormons in California and that equates to about 2% of the vote, or that elderly black people, Hispanics, catholics, and a variety of other ethnic and religious minorities in California voted (and probably donated time and money) in support of Prop 8. (there's too many links to support that, seriously, its not hard to find if you need to verify this statement.)
Saying Mormons have no place voting on issues involving marriage because polygamy is in their history is as ridiculous as saying all white people cannot vote on civil rights issues because slavery is in their history. If I'm not mistaking, this retarded argument of Mormons not being allowed to vote their mind on this issue would bar quite a few white homosexuals from the voting booths as well--if the argument was applied equally, which it isn't. No active Latter-day saint today participates (or participated, since 1890 was a long time ago) in polygamy just as no whites today own (or owned, since 1865 was a long time ago too) slaves.
Speaking of slaves, the Gay/Lesbian rights movement may do well to stop comparing themselves to slaves. Being a homosexual today is NOTHING LIKE BEING A SLAVE--NOTHING. Nothing nothing nothing. I cannot even comprehend the slap in the face this must seem to a large portion of the black community whose ancestors were involved in that horrific peculiar institution. The comparison is so preposterous it's almost laughable if not for the seriousness with which Gay Rights activists say it. Not even close. So not even remotely even a fraction of close. Homosexuals are fighting the same fight as blacks, get real. If I were black I'd probably be offended. As it stands, I'm white and I'm offended.
Speaking of "separate is not equal", if that's your mantra, does that mean that all gay bars and the "Queer Lounge" at Sundance Film Festival and other 'homosexual specific establishments' will stop operations? I'm guessing no. So separate is fine, so long as you like the separate. So even though you have 99% of everything that a 'traditional' married couple has, you just can't get over that 1% you don't have: the word marriage.
Speaking of traditional marriage, I read a lesbian blogger who said that the idea of traditional marriage was a farce. That only 50 years ago it was illegal for blacks to marry whites, for interracial couples and for even interfaith marriages in some areas. So traditional marriage, she said, was always evolving. Here's the kicker though--all those marriages listed as 'traditional' are between a man and woman. That's what people mean by 'traditional' moron.
And don't think for some reason that homosexual couples hold the key to uber-long lasting relationships. Homosexual couples seperate just like heterosexual couples do. This particular study from Scandinavia (where 5 out of every 1,000 new couples is homosexual) found that homosexual couples are actually more likely to divorce than heterosexual couples. But what about Massachusetts you ask? Yes yes, Massachusetts has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country and has legalized same-sex marriages for 2 years now and continues to have a low divorce rate that even slightly fell. Please by no means take that to mean that gay couples are making up for all straight divorces by staying together. It could also just as easily mean that straight couples are divorcing less and gay couples more (or the same amount as straight couples used to). Either way, its a weak argument for either side, so stop bringing it up.
I make no apologies for my beliefs or for my opposition of homosexual marriage. I am allowed to talk to people about how I disagree with same-sex marriage. I'm allowed to canvass neighborhoods and even contribute money. I'm even allowed to say "I believe that same-sex marriage is wrong, physically, morally and religiously and I don't think same-sex couples should be able to marry because I disagree." That is my right as a citizen. Just as it is your right to say you disagree and tell me why. I can EVEN say that I think you're "lifestyle" is wrong, is a sin, and that Satan is working against the sanctity of traditional marriage and the strength of families in general through advocacy groups like yours. (That's a freedom of speech and religion two-fer.) You can say you don't believe in a "higher power".
You DO NOT have the right to silence me just as I do not have the right to silence you. You do not have the right to commandeer society because you shout louder than I. You do not have the right to threaten me when I teach in my home that homosexuality is wrong. You do not have the right to tell me to shut up and stay home, mind my business and to keep my religion, my beliefs, out of my voting. This IS my business. It's my society just as much as it is yours.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe in God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. I believe the words and teachings of Jesus Christ as written in the scriptures. I know Him to be benevolent, merciful and loving. I also know that he has taught me some lessons the hard way and I have emerged from the tempering fire of adversity spiritually stronger, and with a better knowledge of His gospel, than I could have ever imagined possible. I know I will be with my husband for time and all eternity and I could not imagine anything better. I know marriage is sacred and vitally important in His Plan. I know He lives and that His gospel is true: every line, every whit. I know these things without a doubt. I bear this to you so that you will understand that my beliefs and convictions are not fleeting. They are the foundations of my being. I will continue to stand up for them in the face of opposition no matter how strong, loud or menacing the opponents are.
"And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall." Helamen 5:12
And that, is what I have to say about that.
